How to Reduce Stigma Around Mental Health
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About the Show
On this episode, Chuck Gaidica is joined by Susanna Rickman, Suicide Prevention Manager for Gryphon Place. Together, they discuss ways to reduce the stigma surrounding mental health.
In this episode of A Healthier Michigan Podcast, we explore:
- How talking openly about mental health issues, without shame or stigma, can be an important step to break down barriers.
- How listening for potential warning signs and being willing to have difficult conversations can help connect people to support.
- How mental health professionals and community resources can help provide guidance and normalize discussions about mental health.
Transcript
Chuck Gaidica:
So what can we do to change the conversation around mental health and break down stigma? This is episode 167 of A Healthier Michigan podcast, the podcast dedicated to navigating how we can improve our health and well-being through small, healthy habits. I'm your host, Chuck Gaidica. And on this episode, we're diving into how stigma influences individuals' willingness to seek support and strategies that can help combat it. With me today is suicide prevention manager for Gryphon Place, Susanna Rickman. Susanna, good to see you again.
Susanna Rickman:
Nice to see you too, Chuck.
Chuck Gaidica:
So where is Gryphon Place and what do you do there?
Susanna Rickman:
Gryphon Place is located in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and we are more or less a crisis center. We do a lot of different things. We answer 908 Lifeline, we do a ton of suicide prevention trainings, things like that, a number of initiatives. And then we have some restorative practice sides to things as well to help the community out in managing things with that.
Chuck Gaidica:
Okay, wonderful. Well, we've got a lot we can talk about today, but it seems like this stigma that is always associated with mental health is a big issue. It remains a significant barrier for some seeking support and accessing effective care, and you see that probably more than anybody. And despite growing awareness, especially coming through the pandemic, individuals continue to struggle with mental health challenges we're told, often facing negative stereotypes, misconceptions that discourage them from reaching out for help, maybe for themselves or for somebody else that's in their circle of love. And this stigma can manifest in various ways and affect societal attitudes in general, and then the particulars of your family, friends. So what steps would you recommend that we all start to think about taking to overcome these barriers and reduce stigma?
Susanna Rickman:
I would say the number one key is to talk about it and to not talk about it with shame, to be open about the conversation with it. When we do suicide prevention trainings, we actually tell our people to listen for some sort of invitation to ask the question, "Are you considering suicide?" And then when we ask that question, we've opened up the door to have a conversation to tell them we're okay talking about it. And so to make it something that's commonly talked about, not that horrible, evil thing in the closet that we don't talk about. That helps the broad sense of it. And then also, there's some cultural barriers involved in it. A lot of cultures are very anti-talking about illnesses and mental health and things like that. So helping them to understand the importance of having a conversation about it.
Chuck Gaidica:
So let me back up to that big question, are you considering suicide? That's heavy. I mean, that's a really interesting, deep, probing, maybe pushing a little bit kind of question. And I suspect that comes with a lot of maybe preconceived notions that I may have right now. For instance, asking the question itself could push somebody over the edge.
Susanna Rickman:
Not at all. Asking the question lets them know that you're okay to have that conversation. And it's interesting that you say that. One of our programs that I have as a school program, and we go into the classrooms. And I had an evaluation once from the students, we ask for that at the end. And their comment was that it creeped them out that I smile when I say the word suicide. Now, I don't smile and say suicide, but I use that now when I go in and training as a that's because I'm comfortable having this conversation. And the more we use the word and it's acceptable, the less stigma there will be to it. And so talking about it and asking the question, being familiar with it, knowing the signs and symptoms, there's so many free and low-cost trainings out there for people to learn and to educate themselves on suicide prevention and postvention.
Chuck Gaidica:
And that's just one aspect of mental health. And I assume that getting to that question, whether it's about something as heavy as suicide or just mental health in general, our antenna should be up for certain things that people are saying so that we can be present for them, we can be supportive, we can maybe even ask a question that's of significance. What are the things we're listening for that are tips to us that we should be inserting ourselves into that journey, which can often be a very personal one?
Susanna Rickman:
If someone's maybe pulling back a little bit more from you than normal or if someone's making comments like, "It's so hard," or, "I don't know if I can do this." And it may be considered a stretch to think, "Okay, they're thinking that, but they're struggling enough to say, 'I'm not doing well,' basically." And that's them testing the waters with you to see if you are willing to have that conversation or if you're going to be like, "Oh, I'm sorry you're not doing well. You'll get through it," and to have a more detailed conversation about it.
It's a scary topic. It's a scary topic if you know about it. It's a scary topic if you don't know about it. And so just being aware and being open to having that conversation. And even if you're not someone who feels you can handle what comes from it, know a resource that you can send them to and support them. And ask, "I'm so sorry to hear you're struggling. Is there anything I can do to support you?" And they might come back and, "No, there's not." But they might come back and you go, "I didn't think about that. If I could talk to you a little bit more," and go there and have that conversation with them.
Chuck Gaidica:
I was listening to another podcast as I was out on a bike ride and I heard, the context was different, but it's interesting that you're talking about this because somebody was mentioning they had a personal friend who they were at a ball game with watching this friend's kid play. And the friend looked at them and said, "If anything ever happens to me, would you make sure that you take care of my son?" And that was the trigger question. That wasn't a direct relationship question, but this was a guy in his thirties who did eventually wind up taking his own life. And this friend felt bad that they didn't get it as a signal that something was up. Why would you be asking that? It just seemed like it was going by in conversation. But there are those kind of things that don't maybe seem like they rise to the occasion, and yet, if we're tuned in, maybe we would catch that.
Susanna Rickman:
Exactly. And that would be a great time to say to that individual, "Well, of course I will," or however the response is. "But first, why are you asking me that? Are you planning on something happening to you?" And kind of get the conversation going.
Chuck Gaidica:
And what we're focusing on today is stigma, which can often, I suspect, keep us from ourselves seeking help before we ever get to that point where we're contemplating, who's going to help take care of my child? So what strategies or interventions, I guess, have you found most effective in reducing mental health stigma in general within the communities that you have served and offering support services before we get to that point of asking the heavy question or hearing something that's really sounds like there's trouble?
Susanna Rickman:
The quickest, simplest thing is talk about it. Don't treat it like it's a bad word or a naughty word. People are struggling. We've learned with COVID people are having a hard time changing and getting used to the new norm. And so talk about it, have a conversation. Also, I'm not going to lie, barriers, there's a lot of barriers to getting help and there's a lot of misinformed people. One person will go to the ER because they're not doing well and get admitted, and everybody's getting admitted now and I'm getting admitted against my will and all that. And that's really not how it works. There's a lot involved in getting someone admitted into a hospital. And the goal is never to admit you. The goal is to keep you safe for today, basically, is how we word it. And so being open, removing the barriers, removing the cultural thought processes that this is bad and that you're not okay because of it and openly having conversations about it.
Chuck Gaidica:
And this idea of stigma can be something as... It seems to me there are so many on ramps to this, right? I can have a general stigma that I just don't want to talk about it because it just seems like I'm less than I should be to somebody I love. Or it could be that I don't want to talk about it because I don't really know who to go see. Am I going to see a coach? A therapist? A psychologist? A psychiatrist? So you're right, there are these complications for care, but talking about it can lead to getting trusted people in your circle offering at least some input. Doesn't make them right, but they can at least offer to even drive you somewhere if that's what it takes.
Susanna Rickman:
Exactly. And not everybody is an expert in it. I've been in this industry for many, many years and I still have things to learn. It takes a village. It's okay to ask for help on something or to talk about it and then to ask someone else for help. I get calls all the time from people. "Hey, I have this friend and I'm wondering, what do you think about this?" And getting a second opinion on it so they do approach it right, and then next time they're a little more confident on how to do that. And that's why the trainings are so important.
Most communities have the free or reduced-cost trainings. There's a training that's as short as 90 minutes, and then there's a training that's as long as a few days. And so each one has a different level. Some of them teach how to notice, to talk to the person, and then persuade the person to go talk to someone who's more knowledgeable on the subject. There's a training that goes even a step further where you refer them to the person. And then there's a training where you actually learn how to intervene and take them and support them and more advanced with it. So the key is to be there to listen and to help guide if needed.
Chuck Gaidica:
Well, we're in this season of politics. Whether you're somebody running for high office or just when you're trying to make a big decision in your life, many of us have a little kitchen cabinet, a little group of people that we trust. It could be a spouse, could be your priest, could be your friend next door, could be your buddy. But reaching out to that person, they may not have all the answers and you don't want to get confused by too many inputs. But I like what you're saying is that training can help give you that one up on offering some advice that may be the key light bulb that goes off for somebody.
Susanna Rickman:
Well, and you may learn something you wouldn't have thought of. I got a call recently from an individual who had attended one of our trainings. They had heard somebody at work, somebody they didn't really know very well, it was a large company, had lost their child to suicide. And they remembered from training connect them to support. And so they immediately reached out to us to see what we could do to support that family and where they could refer and all of that type of thing. And this is a person who doesn't even know the coworker personally, but that was what he took away from the training. I need to connect them to support.
Chuck Gaidica:
So we're talking a little bit about people who can be influencers to us. I've got maybe a mental health issue, I reach out, somebody helps me. What if I'm trying to navigate this space on my own and I actually have the capability of doing it, but there's still this stigma in my mind like, "Man, if I broke my arm and told people, they'd rush me to the ER. I'd get it taken care of. But now I have to admit to people that I've got some anxiety, which has led to depression. They're not going to think highly of me." How do we get to the point where mental health professionals are able to help? Because if I don't take myself there, if I don't get some encouragement, it just seems like you stay in a vicious cycle.
Susanna Rickman:
Yeah, and you are correct. And even if you are an expert in navigating it, it can still be a struggle. I mean, I've been in case management and in this business, I hate to say business, industry, for a while. And I still find how do I get that person to where they need to be? It can be confusing. And it's okay to shop around. And when I say that is a lot of times people will say, "Oh, I went to therapy once and I didn't like them." Well, you didn't meet your best friend and, bam, you were best friends. It takes some time to find the right person to talk to. It takes that trust, that understanding. Ask questions. If a doctor says, "I really think we should prescribe X, Y, Z." Why? Do you think that? Are there other options? Educate yourself. And in educating yourself you're going to be able to have a positive result and share that positive result with people, which will also help to avoid the stigma getting worse.
Chuck Gaidica:
So you're surrounded by a lot of mental health professionals. How would you view the role of a mental health professional of any strike, whichever one it is, or a hotline staff member, you call a hotline because of suicide prevention or depression, how can they contribute to the individual reducing stigma in their own mind and even for others, caregivers, somebody around you who loves you so that this isn't a thing, this idea of stigma? How can those professionals help start to take some of the edge off of that within our culture in general?
Susanna Rickman:
Well, I know on the hotline, when I worked that and managed it, we quite frequently didn't start the call with, "So what's wrong with you?", things like that. We had a conversation with them and we talked to them, kind of like we do in the trainings, and teach them to have a conversation. You don't walk up to a random person and say, "Are you considering suicide?" But you might walk up to a random person and say, "Hey, how's it going? I noticed you were staring at the ground for quite a bit. You got something heavy on your mind?" That kind of thing. And so we get them to talk about it, to have that conversation. What natural supports do you have? Do you feel comfortable talking to that individual about what's going on and saying, "Hey, can you be my safety buddy?", or, "Can you support me with this?", and having those open conversations.
I quite frequently when I'm comparing them, I compare it to someone who has diabetes. We don't make fun of somebody who has diabetes. We don't mock them. If somebody has an insulin, a pump attached to them, we don't judge them. But why do we judge someone that has a chemical imbalance and needs to have some sort of treatment? How is that different than having an insulin imbalance? So it kind of helps break it down a little bit because people will go, "You're right, you're right. I wouldn't do that."
I also think that there's a lot put on or responsibility of the workers in the mental health system as well, though. We need to normalize it. We can't talk about it like it's shameful or it's bad or we aren't okay with it. That gets passed off when we're talking to somebody. Now, imagine if you called 988 and they were like, "You want to what? What are you talking about?" You would be like, "I'm never calling that line again." But if called and said, "I'm struggling," they're like, "So what's going on? What's happening? How are you feeling?", and have a conversation with you about it. It's not as scary if you have to call again.
Chuck Gaidica:
Well, and there is always a danger, whether it's a healthcare professional, I suspect, or a good friend who you've even trusted your whole life or you grew up with that your input, your advice may be, "Well, just shake it off. I mean, get up, dust yourself off, and keep on moving. You've got stuff to do." And that actually may be a good piece of advice for somebody. But I suspect that if you're not careful about where you're getting this information, just like watching the news today, you got to watch out which direction you're getting it from. You got to get it from a bunch of directions, I think, to be able to come up with the truth. So that may be a good way to think about this, that one answer may not be the final answer, right?
Susanna Rickman:
Yep. I mean, how many times do you have a heart condition and you go to Mayo as well as your local person? And so it's to realize that. It's also important to make sure when you're talking to someone, you're talking to the right person. I say this too. You wouldn't go to the dentist if you broke your toe because it's not the same. So go to a psychologist, a counselor, a psychiatrist. Start with your primary care and ask for the referral because that's not their specialty. You want to talk to somebody who has dedicated their focus to this specific task and making a difference in it.
Chuck Gaidica:
In a very weird way, coming through the pandemic, of course, we know based on all the stats and having a conversation with you about mental health, that anxiety, depression, suicide, stress, it's all ratcheted up. And we can say there are other inputs for this. It could be social media, having too much phone time. I mean, all kinds of things. But we are hearing, the interesting thing to me is that there has never been a time in my life, not just my adult lifetime, where I've heard more talk, just casual talk in headline talk about mental health issues, loneliness. The surgeon general says it's an epidemic in every age demographic. We hear a lot about it. Are you seeing from your end that more people are taking advantage of trainings or community education or calling hotlines? Has that increased? Or are we just hearing more chatter about there are mental health issues in the world right now?
Susanna Rickman:
It has. We've seen an increase in attendance in trainings and people wanting to know things and people calling and asking questions. Several times a week I will get an email from someone in our call center forwarding information onto me that they got a caller that needed this help, support, whatever, and they're sending them to me to reach out and help them. I think that it's become easier to actually acknowledge, like, "Hey, I'm struggling." Whereas at one point, over time, I think about when I was younger, you didn't talk about this. This was taboo. It was not an okay thing. And I think the pandemic, as it had many negative consequences to us, it did have some positive in that people are more willing to talk about how they're doing and their wellness overall, not just physical, mental, everything.
Chuck Gaidica:
And yet, we still have these temptations. Social media is classic for this. Snap, here's my selfie with my family on the perfect vacation in the perfect spot. And yet, behind the scenes, there's trouble brewing. There's something lurking under the surface. It's not as perfect as the world now thinks as they look in on life. So I suspect that can lead to a bit of the stigma. My perception is I think you had it all together. What do you mean you're having trouble? I just saw you on this great vacation and it looks happy anniversary. Everything's perfect, but maybe not.
Susanna Rickman:
And that's a very good point. And that's something that, as workers in this area, we can help by posting things on Facebook that are encouraging and supporting. I'm constantly posting, "Hey, if anybody out there is struggling and you need support, I'm here. If you don't feel comfortable talking to me, there's this." So by posting these things as workers, we're making it, again, an invitation for someone who may be posting a great picture. And I comment on that picture and then they go to my profile and they see this invitation to talk to me about what's going on, to be like, "Oh, you know what? I didn't know that that was... Okay. Let me reach out to her."
Chuck Gaidica:
So as we start to wrap things up here, Susanna, what are the takeaways you want to leave for the audience today?
Susanna Rickman:
The biggest thing would talk about it. The more we talk about it, the less stigma there will be. And it seems so simple, but having that conversation, I can't tell you the number of times since I've moved in my positions, I went from crisis program manager to suicide prevention manager, and people would be like, "Oh, that job must be really hard." It was harder to be a crisis manager than it was to be a suicide prevention manager just in daily task work. But the difference of a crisis to suicide makes it just so much worse, and it's not. It's something that needs to be talked about, and I don't want to say normalized, but accepted.
Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. Well, you've given us a lot of great stuff to think about, and this idea of training, community classes. And you can reach out, you can probably just search it up in your own community. Where can I go for this kind of help anywhere in Michigan? Because training, whether it's parenting classes, whether it's marriage classes, I mean, you think in advance, I'll just speak to my own experience. I've taken classes for personal enrichment that deal with family issues. And going in, I was like, "What do you mean I need to be trained in how to be a parent when we were younger?" And then I take it, I'm like, "No, I learned a whole bunch of stuff because kids don't come with directions." And so I often have taken stuff like this and I come out of it not only smarter and wiser, I hope, but I think, "Thumbs up. This was really worth my time." And so I hope people that find those resources would feel the same way.
Susanna Rickman:
I completely agree. And I would say if you're someone who wants to like, "Hey, I wanted to go to one of those trainings," reach out to your local community mental health. That would be my first stop. And say, "Hey, do you provide suicide prevention trainings or education?" And if they can't, well, who could I talk to? And they'll get you where you need to be.
Chuck Gaidica:
Well, Susanna Rickman, good to see you again. We appreciate your time. Thanks.
Susanna Rickman:
Thank you for having me. Always appreciate being on.
Chuck Gaidica:
Oh, sure thing. Susanna is a suicide prevention manager for Gryphon Place over near Kalamazoo, but these resources are available far and wide in the state. So search it up, seek out some help. Thank you for listening to A Healthier Michigan podcast. It's brought to you by Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan. If you like the show, you want to know more, you can go online to ahealthiermichigan.org/podcast or you can leave us a review or rating on Apple Podcast or Spotify, and you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or X. You can get new episodes, old episodes, all on your smartphone or tablet to take with you. And be sure to subscribe to us on Apple Podcast or Spotify, YouTube, we've got a channel there, or your favorite podcast app. I'm Chuck Gaidica. Be well.
So what can we do to change the conversation around mental health and break down stigma? This is episode 167 of A Healthier Michigan podcast, the podcast dedicated to navigating how we can improve our health and well-being through small, healthy habits. I'm your host, Chuck Gaidica. And on this episode, we're diving into how stigma influences individuals' willingness to seek support and strategies that can help combat it. With me today is suicide prevention manager for Gryphon Place, Susanna Rickman. Susanna, good to see you again.
Susanna Rickman:
Nice to see you too, Chuck.
Chuck Gaidica:
So where is Gryphon Place and what do you do there?
Susanna Rickman:
Gryphon Place is located in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and we are more or less a crisis center. We do a lot of different things. We answer 908 Lifeline, we do a ton of suicide prevention trainings, things like that, a number of initiatives. And then we have some restorative practice sides to things as well to help the community out in managing things with that.
Chuck Gaidica:
Okay, wonderful. Well, we've got a lot we can talk about today, but it seems like this stigma that is always associated with mental health is a big issue. It remains a significant barrier for some seeking support and accessing effective care, and you see that probably more than anybody. And despite growing awareness, especially coming through the pandemic, individuals continue to struggle with mental health challenges we're told, often facing negative stereotypes, misconceptions that discourage them from reaching out for help, maybe for themselves or for somebody else that's in their circle of love. And this stigma can manifest in various ways and affect societal attitudes in general, and then the particulars of your family, friends. So what steps would you recommend that we all start to think about taking to overcome these barriers and reduce stigma?
Susanna Rickman:
I would say the number one key is to talk about it and to not talk about it with shame, to be open about the conversation with it. When we do suicide prevention trainings, we actually tell our people to listen for some sort of invitation to ask the question, "Are you considering suicide?" And then when we ask that question, we've opened up the door to have a conversation to tell them we're okay talking about it. And so to make it something that's commonly talked about, not that horrible, evil thing in the closet that we don't talk about. That helps the broad sense of it. And then also, there's some cultural barriers involved in it. A lot of cultures are very anti-talking about illnesses and mental health and things like that. So helping them to understand the importance of having a conversation about it.
Chuck Gaidica:
So let me back up to that big question, are you considering suicide? That's heavy. I mean, that's a really interesting, deep, probing, maybe pushing a little bit kind of question. And I suspect that comes with a lot of maybe preconceived notions that I may have right now. For instance, asking the question itself could push somebody over the edge.
Susanna Rickman:
Not at all. Asking the question lets them know that you're okay to have that conversation. And it's interesting that you say that. One of our programs that I have as a school program, and we go into the classrooms. And I had an evaluation once from the students, we ask for that at the end. And their comment was that it creeped them out that I smile when I say the word suicide. Now, I don't smile and say suicide, but I use that now when I go in and training as a that's because I'm comfortable having this conversation. And the more we use the word and it's acceptable, the less stigma there will be to it. And so talking about it and asking the question, being familiar with it, knowing the signs and symptoms, there's so many free and low-cost trainings out there for people to learn and to educate themselves on suicide prevention and postvention.
Chuck Gaidica:
And that's just one aspect of mental health. And I assume that getting to that question, whether it's about something as heavy as suicide or just mental health in general, our antenna should be up for certain things that people are saying so that we can be present for them, we can be supportive, we can maybe even ask a question that's of significance. What are the things we're listening for that are tips to us that we should be inserting ourselves into that journey, which can often be a very personal one?
Susanna Rickman:
If someone's maybe pulling back a little bit more from you than normal or if someone's making comments like, "It's so hard," or, "I don't know if I can do this." And it may be considered a stretch to think, "Okay, they're thinking that, but they're struggling enough to say, 'I'm not doing well,' basically." And that's them testing the waters with you to see if you are willing to have that conversation or if you're going to be like, "Oh, I'm sorry you're not doing well. You'll get through it," and to have a more detailed conversation about it.
It's a scary topic. It's a scary topic if you know about it. It's a scary topic if you don't know about it. And so just being aware and being open to having that conversation. And even if you're not someone who feels you can handle what comes from it, know a resource that you can send them to and support them. And ask, "I'm so sorry to hear you're struggling. Is there anything I can do to support you?" And they might come back and, "No, there's not." But they might come back and you go, "I didn't think about that. If I could talk to you a little bit more," and go there and have that conversation with them.
Chuck Gaidica:
I was listening to another podcast as I was out on a bike ride and I heard, the context was different, but it's interesting that you're talking about this because somebody was mentioning they had a personal friend who they were at a ball game with watching this friend's kid play. And the friend looked at them and said, "If anything ever happens to me, would you make sure that you take care of my son?" And that was the trigger question. That wasn't a direct relationship question, but this was a guy in his thirties who did eventually wind up taking his own life. And this friend felt bad that they didn't get it as a signal that something was up. Why would you be asking that? It just seemed like it was going by in conversation. But there are those kind of things that don't maybe seem like they rise to the occasion, and yet, if we're tuned in, maybe we would catch that.
Susanna Rickman:
Exactly. And that would be a great time to say to that individual, "Well, of course I will," or however the response is. "But first, why are you asking me that? Are you planning on something happening to you?" And kind of get the conversation going.
Chuck Gaidica:
And what we're focusing on today is stigma, which can often, I suspect, keep us from ourselves seeking help before we ever get to that point where we're contemplating, who's going to help take care of my child? So what strategies or interventions, I guess, have you found most effective in reducing mental health stigma in general within the communities that you have served and offering support services before we get to that point of asking the heavy question or hearing something that's really sounds like there's trouble?
Susanna Rickman:
The quickest, simplest thing is talk about it. Don't treat it like it's a bad word or a naughty word. People are struggling. We've learned with COVID people are having a hard time changing and getting used to the new norm. And so talk about it, have a conversation. Also, I'm not going to lie, barriers, there's a lot of barriers to getting help and there's a lot of misinformed people. One person will go to the ER because they're not doing well and get admitted, and everybody's getting admitted now and I'm getting admitted against my will and all that. And that's really not how it works. There's a lot involved in getting someone admitted into a hospital. And the goal is never to admit you. The goal is to keep you safe for today, basically, is how we word it. And so being open, removing the barriers, removing the cultural thought processes that this is bad and that you're not okay because of it and openly having conversations about it.
Chuck Gaidica:
And this idea of stigma can be something as... It seems to me there are so many on ramps to this, right? I can have a general stigma that I just don't want to talk about it because it just seems like I'm less than I should be to somebody I love. Or it could be that I don't want to talk about it because I don't really know who to go see. Am I going to see a coach? A therapist? A psychologist? A psychiatrist? So you're right, there are these complications for care, but talking about it can lead to getting trusted people in your circle offering at least some input. Doesn't make them right, but they can at least offer to even drive you somewhere if that's what it takes.
Susanna Rickman:
Exactly. And not everybody is an expert in it. I've been in this industry for many, many years and I still have things to learn. It takes a village. It's okay to ask for help on something or to talk about it and then to ask someone else for help. I get calls all the time from people. "Hey, I have this friend and I'm wondering, what do you think about this?" And getting a second opinion on it so they do approach it right, and then next time they're a little more confident on how to do that. And that's why the trainings are so important.
Most communities have the free or reduced-cost trainings. There's a training that's as short as 90 minutes, and then there's a training that's as long as a few days. And so each one has a different level. Some of them teach how to notice, to talk to the person, and then persuade the person to go talk to someone who's more knowledgeable on the subject. There's a training that goes even a step further where you refer them to the person. And then there's a training where you actually learn how to intervene and take them and support them and more advanced with it. So the key is to be there to listen and to help guide if needed.
Chuck Gaidica:
Well, we're in this season of politics. Whether you're somebody running for high office or just when you're trying to make a big decision in your life, many of us have a little kitchen cabinet, a little group of people that we trust. It could be a spouse, could be your priest, could be your friend next door, could be your buddy. But reaching out to that person, they may not have all the answers and you don't want to get confused by too many inputs. But I like what you're saying is that training can help give you that one up on offering some advice that may be the key light bulb that goes off for somebody.
Susanna Rickman:
Well, and you may learn something you wouldn't have thought of. I got a call recently from an individual who had attended one of our trainings. They had heard somebody at work, somebody they didn't really know very well, it was a large company, had lost their child to suicide. And they remembered from training connect them to support. And so they immediately reached out to us to see what we could do to support that family and where they could refer and all of that type of thing. And this is a person who doesn't even know the coworker personally, but that was what he took away from the training. I need to connect them to support.
Chuck Gaidica:
So we're talking a little bit about people who can be influencers to us. I've got maybe a mental health issue, I reach out, somebody helps me. What if I'm trying to navigate this space on my own and I actually have the capability of doing it, but there's still this stigma in my mind like, "Man, if I broke my arm and told people, they'd rush me to the ER. I'd get it taken care of. But now I have to admit to people that I've got some anxiety, which has led to depression. They're not going to think highly of me." How do we get to the point where mental health professionals are able to help? Because if I don't take myself there, if I don't get some encouragement, it just seems like you stay in a vicious cycle.
Susanna Rickman:
Yeah, and you are correct. And even if you are an expert in navigating it, it can still be a struggle. I mean, I've been in case management and in this business, I hate to say business, industry, for a while. And I still find how do I get that person to where they need to be? It can be confusing. And it's okay to shop around. And when I say that is a lot of times people will say, "Oh, I went to therapy once and I didn't like them." Well, you didn't meet your best friend and, bam, you were best friends. It takes some time to find the right person to talk to. It takes that trust, that understanding. Ask questions. If a doctor says, "I really think we should prescribe X, Y, Z." Why? Do you think that? Are there other options? Educate yourself. And in educating yourself you're going to be able to have a positive result and share that positive result with people, which will also help to avoid the stigma getting worse.
Chuck Gaidica:
So you're surrounded by a lot of mental health professionals. How would you view the role of a mental health professional of any strike, whichever one it is, or a hotline staff member, you call a hotline because of suicide prevention or depression, how can they contribute to the individual reducing stigma in their own mind and even for others, caregivers, somebody around you who loves you so that this isn't a thing, this idea of stigma? How can those professionals help start to take some of the edge off of that within our culture in general?
Susanna Rickman:
Well, I know on the hotline, when I worked that and managed it, we quite frequently didn't start the call with, "So what's wrong with you?", things like that. We had a conversation with them and we talked to them, kind of like we do in the trainings, and teach them to have a conversation. You don't walk up to a random person and say, "Are you considering suicide?" But you might walk up to a random person and say, "Hey, how's it going? I noticed you were staring at the ground for quite a bit. You got something heavy on your mind?" That kind of thing. And so we get them to talk about it, to have that conversation. What natural supports do you have? Do you feel comfortable talking to that individual about what's going on and saying, "Hey, can you be my safety buddy?", or, "Can you support me with this?", and having those open conversations.
I quite frequently when I'm comparing them, I compare it to someone who has diabetes. We don't make fun of somebody who has diabetes. We don't mock them. If somebody has an insulin, a pump attached to them, we don't judge them. But why do we judge someone that has a chemical imbalance and needs to have some sort of treatment? How is that different than having an insulin imbalance? So it kind of helps break it down a little bit because people will go, "You're right, you're right. I wouldn't do that."
I also think that there's a lot put on or responsibility of the workers in the mental health system as well, though. We need to normalize it. We can't talk about it like it's shameful or it's bad or we aren't okay with it. That gets passed off when we're talking to somebody. Now, imagine if you called 988 and they were like, "You want to what? What are you talking about?" You would be like, "I'm never calling that line again." But if called and said, "I'm struggling," they're like, "So what's going on? What's happening? How are you feeling?", and have a conversation with you about it. It's not as scary if you have to call again.
Chuck Gaidica:
Well, and there is always a danger, whether it's a healthcare professional, I suspect, or a good friend who you've even trusted your whole life or you grew up with that your input, your advice may be, "Well, just shake it off. I mean, get up, dust yourself off, and keep on moving. You've got stuff to do." And that actually may be a good piece of advice for somebody. But I suspect that if you're not careful about where you're getting this information, just like watching the news today, you got to watch out which direction you're getting it from. You got to get it from a bunch of directions, I think, to be able to come up with the truth. So that may be a good way to think about this, that one answer may not be the final answer, right?
Susanna Rickman:
Yep. I mean, how many times do you have a heart condition and you go to Mayo as well as your local person? And so it's to realize that. It's also important to make sure when you're talking to someone, you're talking to the right person. I say this too. You wouldn't go to the dentist if you broke your toe because it's not the same. So go to a psychologist, a counselor, a psychiatrist. Start with your primary care and ask for the referral because that's not their specialty. You want to talk to somebody who has dedicated their focus to this specific task and making a difference in it.
Chuck Gaidica:
In a very weird way, coming through the pandemic, of course, we know based on all the stats and having a conversation with you about mental health, that anxiety, depression, suicide, stress, it's all ratcheted up. And we can say there are other inputs for this. It could be social media, having too much phone time. I mean, all kinds of things. But we are hearing, the interesting thing to me is that there has never been a time in my life, not just my adult lifetime, where I've heard more talk, just casual talk in headline talk about mental health issues, loneliness. The surgeon general says it's an epidemic in every age demographic. We hear a lot about it. Are you seeing from your end that more people are taking advantage of trainings or community education or calling hotlines? Has that increased? Or are we just hearing more chatter about there are mental health issues in the world right now?
Susanna Rickman:
It has. We've seen an increase in attendance in trainings and people wanting to know things and people calling and asking questions. Several times a week I will get an email from someone in our call center forwarding information onto me that they got a caller that needed this help, support, whatever, and they're sending them to me to reach out and help them. I think that it's become easier to actually acknowledge, like, "Hey, I'm struggling." Whereas at one point, over time, I think about when I was younger, you didn't talk about this. This was taboo. It was not an okay thing. And I think the pandemic, as it had many negative consequences to us, it did have some positive in that people are more willing to talk about how they're doing and their wellness overall, not just physical, mental, everything.
Chuck Gaidica:
And yet, we still have these temptations. Social media is classic for this. Snap, here's my selfie with my family on the perfect vacation in the perfect spot. And yet, behind the scenes, there's trouble brewing. There's something lurking under the surface. It's not as perfect as the world now thinks as they look in on life. So I suspect that can lead to a bit of the stigma. My perception is I think you had it all together. What do you mean you're having trouble? I just saw you on this great vacation and it looks happy anniversary. Everything's perfect, but maybe not.
Susanna Rickman:
And that's a very good point. And that's something that, as workers in this area, we can help by posting things on Facebook that are encouraging and supporting. I'm constantly posting, "Hey, if anybody out there is struggling and you need support, I'm here. If you don't feel comfortable talking to me, there's this." So by posting these things as workers, we're making it, again, an invitation for someone who may be posting a great picture. And I comment on that picture and then they go to my profile and they see this invitation to talk to me about what's going on, to be like, "Oh, you know what? I didn't know that that was... Okay. Let me reach out to her."
Chuck Gaidica:
So as we start to wrap things up here, Susanna, what are the takeaways you want to leave for the audience today?
Susanna Rickman:
The biggest thing would talk about it. The more we talk about it, the less stigma there will be. And it seems so simple, but having that conversation, I can't tell you the number of times since I've moved in my positions, I went from crisis program manager to suicide prevention manager, and people would be like, "Oh, that job must be really hard." It was harder to be a crisis manager than it was to be a suicide prevention manager just in daily task work. But the difference of a crisis to suicide makes it just so much worse, and it's not. It's something that needs to be talked about, and I don't want to say normalized, but accepted.
Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. Well, you've given us a lot of great stuff to think about, and this idea of training, community classes. And you can reach out, you can probably just search it up in your own community. Where can I go for this kind of help anywhere in Michigan? Because training, whether it's parenting classes, whether it's marriage classes, I mean, you think in advance, I'll just speak to my own experience. I've taken classes for personal enrichment that deal with family issues. And going in, I was like, "What do you mean I need to be trained in how to be a parent when we were younger?" And then I take it, I'm like, "No, I learned a whole bunch of stuff because kids don't come with directions." And so I often have taken stuff like this and I come out of it not only smarter and wiser, I hope, but I think, "Thumbs up. This was really worth my time." And so I hope people that find those resources would feel the same way.
Susanna Rickman:
I completely agree. And I would say if you're someone who wants to like, "Hey, I wanted to go to one of those trainings," reach out to your local community mental health. That would be my first stop. And say, "Hey, do you provide suicide prevention trainings or education?" And if they can't, well, who could I talk to? And they'll get you where you need to be.
Chuck Gaidica:
Well, Susanna Rickman, good to see you again. We appreciate your time. Thanks.
Susanna Rickman:
Thank you for having me. Always appreciate being on.
Chuck Gaidica:
Oh, sure thing. Susanna is a suicide prevention manager for Gryphon Place over near Kalamazoo, but these resources are available far and wide in the state. So search it up, seek out some help. Thank you for listening to A Healthier Michigan podcast. It's brought to you by Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan. If you like the show, you want to know more, you can go online to ahealthiermichigan.org/podcast or you can leave us a review or rating on Apple Podcast or Spotify, and you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or X. You can get new episodes, old episodes, all on your smartphone or tablet to take with you. And be sure to subscribe to us on Apple Podcast or Spotify, YouTube, we've got a channel there, or your favorite podcast app. I'm Chuck Gaidica. Be well.
