Is Organic Food Overrated or Underrated?
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About the Show
On this episode, Chuck Gaidica is joined by Shanthi Appelö, registered dietitian for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan. Together, they discuss the difference between organic and non-organic foods and whether organic is actually healthier for us.
In this episode of A Healthier Michigan Podcast, we explore:
- Organic vs non-organic, what’s the difference?
- If organic has more health benefits
- How we should approach both organic and conventional foods
Transcript
Chuck Gaidica:
This is A Healthier Michigan Podcast, episode 124. Coming up, we discuss whether or not organic food is much more beneficial to your health.
Welcome to A Healthier Michigan Podcast. It’s a podcast that’s dedicating to helping us all navigate how we improve our health and well-being through small, healthy habits we can start implementing right now. I’m your host, Chuck Gaidica. And every other week, we’ll sit down with a certified expert and we discover all kinds of things. We also dig into topics like nutrition and fitness and a lot more. And on this episode, we’re diving deeper into the difference between organic and non-organic foods and whether or not organic is actually healthier for us. With us today is registered dietitian for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan, Shanthi Appelö. Hello, Shanthi.
This is A Healthier Michigan Podcast, episode 124. Coming up, we discuss whether or not organic food is much more beneficial to your health.
Welcome to A Healthier Michigan Podcast. It’s a podcast that’s dedicating to helping us all navigate how we improve our health and well-being through small, healthy habits we can start implementing right now. I’m your host, Chuck Gaidica. And every other week, we’ll sit down with a certified expert and we discover all kinds of things. We also dig into topics like nutrition and fitness and a lot more. And on this episode, we’re diving deeper into the difference between organic and non-organic foods and whether or not organic is actually healthier for us. With us today is registered dietitian for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan, Shanthi Appelö. Hello, Shanthi.
Shanthi Appelö:
Hello.
Hello.
Chuck Gaidica:
And I know you’ve got a passion for this idea of science, of nutrition, and behavior and all that comes along with it so I bet you have studied this idea, you’ve probably got into it yourself. But according to recent research, we’ve got to be careful with who gives us that. But it was posted to the Public Library of Science, “Consumers perceive organic foods as much more nutritious, more natural, and environmentally friendly than non-organic or conventional foods.” Consumers are also more health conscious than ever before. I would say, on average, that’s true for many of us. And a poll conducted by the New York Post show that over 70% of Americans are more aware of how they treat their bodies post-pandemic. Very interesting stuff. Do you lean into organic foods of all kinds more or is there some balance that you have in your own life?
And I know you’ve got a passion for this idea of science, of nutrition, and behavior and all that comes along with it so I bet you have studied this idea, you’ve probably got into it yourself. But according to recent research, we’ve got to be careful with who gives us that. But it was posted to the Public Library of Science, “Consumers perceive organic foods as much more nutritious, more natural, and environmentally friendly than non-organic or conventional foods.” Consumers are also more health conscious than ever before. I would say, on average, that’s true for many of us. And a poll conducted by the New York Post show that over 70% of Americans are more aware of how they treat their bodies post-pandemic. Very interesting stuff. Do you lean into organic foods of all kinds more or is there some balance that you have in your own life?
Shanthi Appelö:
I do tend to choose organic produce. And a big reason for me personally, and of course it is a personal choice whether you choose to or not, is because of the way that it impacts the environment. So, we can dig into the health, we can dig into that, but maybe let’s start with what organic actually is.
I do tend to choose organic produce. And a big reason for me personally, and of course it is a personal choice whether you choose to or not, is because of the way that it impacts the environment. So, we can dig into the health, we can dig into that, but maybe let’s start with what organic actually is.
Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah, what is the definition?
Yeah, what is the definition?
Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah, so the EPA has this definition and it says, “Organically grown food is food grown and processed using no synthetic fertilizers or pesticides. Pesticides derived from a natural source, like biological pesticides, may be used in producing organically grown food.” So what you’re hearing here are fertilizers and pesticides. And so, typically, that’s the biggest concern I hear when I talk to people, when I’ve counseled people in the past and things like that, is the idea of these pesticides being on our food and being harmful. I also hear a lot about organic foods just having more nutrients. And so, maybe we can start with that nutrition component of, do organic foods really do have more nutrients?
Yeah, so the EPA has this definition and it says, “Organically grown food is food grown and processed using no synthetic fertilizers or pesticides. Pesticides derived from a natural source, like biological pesticides, may be used in producing organically grown food.” So what you’re hearing here are fertilizers and pesticides. And so, typically, that’s the biggest concern I hear when I talk to people, when I’ve counseled people in the past and things like that, is the idea of these pesticides being on our food and being harmful. I also hear a lot about organic foods just having more nutrients. And so, maybe we can start with that nutrition component of, do organic foods really do have more nutrients?
Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. Is that possible? Can an apple that’s organically grown be better than one that’s been sprayed to keep the worms away?
Yeah. Is that possible? Can an apple that’s organically grown be better than one that’s been sprayed to keep the worms away?
Shanthi Appelö:
So, there are a few different things to this. There are some research studies that suggest that foods can have a little bit more nutrients if they’re grown organically. So maybe it has a bit more lycopene in things like a tomato, which is an antioxidant, and it gives tomatoes that rich color. But overarching on all of these foods, there’s been no research that really says that they have significant health effects. So, we do see that apples to apples, they may look a little bit different in terms of their nutrition profile, but research says that hey, it may not be significant enough to actually cause some health changes.
However, I think one note that’s interesting here is that organic farming also applies to raising organic livestock too. So there are practices for farming that people can follow. For example, if we’re thinking of cattle that’s been fed cattle grass, alfalfa, these are really rich in omega-3 fatty acids. So, because they’re consuming it, when we consume this livestock, we’re more likely to have a product that’s rich in omega 3s, which is healthier for our hearts than something, than other fats. So, that’s something to think about there.
So, there are a few different things to this. There are some research studies that suggest that foods can have a little bit more nutrients if they’re grown organically. So maybe it has a bit more lycopene in things like a tomato, which is an antioxidant, and it gives tomatoes that rich color. But overarching on all of these foods, there’s been no research that really says that they have significant health effects. So, we do see that apples to apples, they may look a little bit different in terms of their nutrition profile, but research says that hey, it may not be significant enough to actually cause some health changes.
However, I think one note that’s interesting here is that organic farming also applies to raising organic livestock too. So there are practices for farming that people can follow. For example, if we’re thinking of cattle that’s been fed cattle grass, alfalfa, these are really rich in omega-3 fatty acids. So, because they’re consuming it, when we consume this livestock, we’re more likely to have a product that’s rich in omega 3s, which is healthier for our hearts than something, than other fats. So, that’s something to think about there.
Chuck Gaidica:
I’ve had a discussion with somebody who leans heavily into organic, and they suggested to me that one of the ways to think about this, the way they started was that they got into organic fruits and vegetables because that was a more cost efficient way to deal with their own budget. Because if you’re going for grass-fed beef or bison or something, that’s going to be much more expensive for a steak or hamburger, that person said, “I can’t afford all that stuff, but I know I can at least start with fruits and vegetables.” Does that make sense to you that there is a way to kind of come into the shallow end of the pool first on this idea of organic and then work your way in?
I’ve had a discussion with somebody who leans heavily into organic, and they suggested to me that one of the ways to think about this, the way they started was that they got into organic fruits and vegetables because that was a more cost efficient way to deal with their own budget. Because if you’re going for grass-fed beef or bison or something, that’s going to be much more expensive for a steak or hamburger, that person said, “I can’t afford all that stuff, but I know I can at least start with fruits and vegetables.” Does that make sense to you that there is a way to kind of come into the shallow end of the pool first on this idea of organic and then work your way in?
Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, it’s definitely worth noting that organic foods are more expensive, right? And some of the reasons for that is because farming it is oftentimes more labor intense. So for example, if you’re growing an apple and you’re not using those pesticides, then it might be a little bit more laborious to pick off those pests that are growing on them or maybe you have to go through different methods. So, in that way, the labor costs and other practices make them more expensive.
Yeah, I think so. I mean, it’s definitely worth noting that organic foods are more expensive, right? And some of the reasons for that is because farming it is oftentimes more labor intense. So for example, if you’re growing an apple and you’re not using those pesticides, then it might be a little bit more laborious to pick off those pests that are growing on them or maybe you have to go through different methods. So, in that way, the labor costs and other practices make them more expensive.
Chuck Gaidica:
So, we can’t just wash this stuff off, right? I mean, no matter how much I scrub my apples or tomatoes, even using a little bit of soap and making sure I rinse, does that really help?
So, we can’t just wash this stuff off, right? I mean, no matter how much I scrub my apples or tomatoes, even using a little bit of soap and making sure I rinse, does that really help?
Shanthi Appelö:
That’s such a great question. So yes, you can definitely help get these pesticides off by washing your produce very thoroughly. However, there’s still going to be some on there. There’s still a lot of traces. There’s still some germs, there’s still some dirt. So I think all in all, washing your produce, if you have something like a brussel sprout or a green onion, picking out that outermost layer and avoiding that, because that’s what’s going to have most of those pesticides, and then of course peeling your fruits and vegetables is going to help.
However, it takes away a lot of the good stuff. But the Environmental Working Group does have a list. You’ve probably heard of it before. There’s the Dirty Dozen, there’s the Clean 15, they come up with a new list every year. And so, a few of the ones that they suggest, that you could choose organic over non-organic or conventional, would be things like strawberry, spinach, any of your greens like kale and collard, apples, grapes, bell peppers, cherries, peaches, pears, celery, and tomatoes.
And then, they also have a list for clean 15 and these are ones that are less likely to come along with those pesticides. So on this list you’re going to see avocados, sweet corn, pineapple, onions, mushrooms, cantaloupe, mangoes, watermelon, sweet potatoes. Those are just a few. But you can definitely check it out if you want to learn more about it. But I think this idea of pesticides and fertilizers when it comes to health, something really worth noting here is a lot of the research that’s been done on these has been with people who are in close contact with pesticides when it comes to their health. So you’re thinking of the farmworkers, people who are handling the pesticides.
And I think there’s definitely more research that needs to be done. But what we know right now is we’re not seeing pesticides linked to cancer or linked to a higher risk of cancer per se. But it is something that’s constantly evolving, we may find out more. There was a study done in France and they looked at like 70,000 males, and they found that 25% reduced cancer risk in people who ate organic foods or these men that ate organic foods. And 25% reduced risk, that’s a huge number.
That’s such a great question. So yes, you can definitely help get these pesticides off by washing your produce very thoroughly. However, there’s still going to be some on there. There’s still a lot of traces. There’s still some germs, there’s still some dirt. So I think all in all, washing your produce, if you have something like a brussel sprout or a green onion, picking out that outermost layer and avoiding that, because that’s what’s going to have most of those pesticides, and then of course peeling your fruits and vegetables is going to help.
However, it takes away a lot of the good stuff. But the Environmental Working Group does have a list. You’ve probably heard of it before. There’s the Dirty Dozen, there’s the Clean 15, they come up with a new list every year. And so, a few of the ones that they suggest, that you could choose organic over non-organic or conventional, would be things like strawberry, spinach, any of your greens like kale and collard, apples, grapes, bell peppers, cherries, peaches, pears, celery, and tomatoes.
And then, they also have a list for clean 15 and these are ones that are less likely to come along with those pesticides. So on this list you’re going to see avocados, sweet corn, pineapple, onions, mushrooms, cantaloupe, mangoes, watermelon, sweet potatoes. Those are just a few. But you can definitely check it out if you want to learn more about it. But I think this idea of pesticides and fertilizers when it comes to health, something really worth noting here is a lot of the research that’s been done on these has been with people who are in close contact with pesticides when it comes to their health. So you’re thinking of the farmworkers, people who are handling the pesticides.
And I think there’s definitely more research that needs to be done. But what we know right now is we’re not seeing pesticides linked to cancer or linked to a higher risk of cancer per se. But it is something that’s constantly evolving, we may find out more. There was a study done in France and they looked at like 70,000 males, and they found that 25% reduced cancer risk in people who ate organic foods or these men that ate organic foods. And 25% reduced risk, that’s a huge number.
Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Shanthi Appelö:
However, there are a lot of shortcomings that came with this study and the way that it was designed. It didn’t show cause and effect, it was observational. And so, as we continue to see these studies come out, we do want to see more cause and effect, we do want to see more substantial research, we want to see research with more diverse groups of people and more number of people. And so, we shouldn’t let these kind of one studies determine what we should do.
However, I think it’s important to note too that the EPA has changed a lot of standards for conventional foods over the years for some pesticides and fertilizers. And there was one kind of recently, just a few years ago that they reduced the level or even forbid levels of in pesticides and it was one that was causing some problems in children, hyperactivity and things like that. So, the EPA’s always kind of on it, but it is important to note that over time, things have changed, so.
However, there are a lot of shortcomings that came with this study and the way that it was designed. It didn’t show cause and effect, it was observational. And so, as we continue to see these studies come out, we do want to see more cause and effect, we do want to see more substantial research, we want to see research with more diverse groups of people and more number of people. And so, we shouldn’t let these kind of one studies determine what we should do.
However, I think it’s important to note too that the EPA has changed a lot of standards for conventional foods over the years for some pesticides and fertilizers. And there was one kind of recently, just a few years ago that they reduced the level or even forbid levels of in pesticides and it was one that was causing some problems in children, hyperactivity and things like that. So, the EPA’s always kind of on it, but it is important to note that over time, things have changed, so.
Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. And you mentioned environmental concern too because that’s something, you start spraying, and we’ve seen class action lawsuits for some big pesticide companies, right? And that may be for people that had more exposure, the farmer who’s driving the tractor and applying it. So I understand some of that, not to diminish it for the rest of us. But that’s getting into the earth, that’s leaching into our waterways, that’s coming then eventually to our tap water maybe. So, it is something I think we can all be concerned about. And frankly for me, the more I can lean toward clean and fresh, more organic within reason from a budgetary standpoint, I’ll do it if it works.
Yeah. And you mentioned environmental concern too because that’s something, you start spraying, and we’ve seen class action lawsuits for some big pesticide companies, right? And that may be for people that had more exposure, the farmer who’s driving the tractor and applying it. So I understand some of that, not to diminish it for the rest of us. But that’s getting into the earth, that’s leaching into our waterways, that’s coming then eventually to our tap water maybe. So, it is something I think we can all be concerned about. And frankly for me, the more I can lean toward clean and fresh, more organic within reason from a budgetary standpoint, I’ll do it if it works.
Shanthi Appelö:
No, exactly, I completely agree. And like I said in the beginning, this is one of the reasons that I choose to purchase organic produce, so they don’t use the same types of pesticides. So in that way, it really enhances the biodiversity. There’s better soil quality. And there’s really, the key here is reduced pollution from the fertilizers and from that pesticide runoff. It gets into the water, it gets into the soil. And so, pollution of course, we know is big problem.
I will say there has been a little bit of a debate, a little hot debate lately. And when we think about the environment and how land use is a hot topic, the more land we use, the more water is required for that land, the more greenhouse gases are formed whenever we have animals that are on those pastures. One of the things about organic farming is that it actually uses more land because the crop yield is lower. So anyways, just one little downside, I guess, to organic farming.
Now, one of the other things about organic farming, and one of the reasons I like to choose organic produced meats and things like that is because if it has that stamp of approval that it’s been certified organic for animals. It means that they have healthy living conditions and access to the outdoors. So for example, when you’re going to choose an egg carton label, and I used to do this, I used to be like, “Yes, free range. I’m never going to choose ones that are in a cage. Free range sounds so much better than cage free.”
But that might not mean much. It might mean that they just see the light of the day for like two minutes a day. It doesn’t have very strict standards. However, when you do see that organic label on an animal product, it means that they’re fed organic food, they are pasture feeding for at least 30% of the grazing season, and they have vaccinations. So, a lot of things to protect the animal.
No, exactly, I completely agree. And like I said in the beginning, this is one of the reasons that I choose to purchase organic produce, so they don’t use the same types of pesticides. So in that way, it really enhances the biodiversity. There’s better soil quality. And there’s really, the key here is reduced pollution from the fertilizers and from that pesticide runoff. It gets into the water, it gets into the soil. And so, pollution of course, we know is big problem.
I will say there has been a little bit of a debate, a little hot debate lately. And when we think about the environment and how land use is a hot topic, the more land we use, the more water is required for that land, the more greenhouse gases are formed whenever we have animals that are on those pastures. One of the things about organic farming is that it actually uses more land because the crop yield is lower. So anyways, just one little downside, I guess, to organic farming.
Now, one of the other things about organic farming, and one of the reasons I like to choose organic produced meats and things like that is because if it has that stamp of approval that it’s been certified organic for animals. It means that they have healthy living conditions and access to the outdoors. So for example, when you’re going to choose an egg carton label, and I used to do this, I used to be like, “Yes, free range. I’m never going to choose ones that are in a cage. Free range sounds so much better than cage free.”
But that might not mean much. It might mean that they just see the light of the day for like two minutes a day. It doesn’t have very strict standards. However, when you do see that organic label on an animal product, it means that they’re fed organic food, they are pasture feeding for at least 30% of the grazing season, and they have vaccinations. So, a lot of things to protect the animal.
Chuck Gaidica:
I saw firsthand, I was at a food shelter and I was just helping out, and I saw big boxes of apples come in and they said some of them could have been organic. But here was the interesting thing, they weren’t dinged up because they had rolled around, they somehow got past their life at a store and they decided to donate them. But what was interesting, it was an aesthetic thing that they said sometimes a little splotch here or there which could have been prevented more by spraying it with something along the way, it wasn’t a wormhole so it wasn’t like it was infested with something. But I found it interesting that we as consumers are walking down the aisles and we’re looking for the best looking apple or whatever it is.
I saw firsthand, I was at a food shelter and I was just helping out, and I saw big boxes of apples come in and they said some of them could have been organic. But here was the interesting thing, they weren’t dinged up because they had rolled around, they somehow got past their life at a store and they decided to donate them. But what was interesting, it was an aesthetic thing that they said sometimes a little splotch here or there which could have been prevented more by spraying it with something along the way, it wasn’t a wormhole so it wasn’t like it was infested with something. But I found it interesting that we as consumers are walking down the aisles and we’re looking for the best looking apple or whatever it is.
Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chuck Gaidica:
And sometimes, that also means that somebody along the way is spraying something so it doesn’t get a blight or a little blemish, for us it would be like a bruise maybe. And I’m just thinking, “Wow, that’s amazing that that much produce could come in and be donated for free because of little tiny blemishes.”
And sometimes, that also means that somebody along the way is spraying something so it doesn’t get a blight or a little blemish, for us it would be like a bruise maybe. And I’m just thinking, “Wow, that’s amazing that that much produce could come in and be donated for free because of little tiny blemishes.”
Shanthi Appelö:
Because it’s not pretty.
Because it’s not pretty.
Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chuck Gaidica:
And so, the moral to the story in my mind was, sometimes some of these sprays have nothing to do with an overt pest like a bug, it has to do with keeping them pretty. It was really something, it was eye-opening.
And so, the moral to the story in my mind was, sometimes some of these sprays have nothing to do with an overt pest like a bug, it has to do with keeping them pretty. It was really something, it was eye-opening.
Shanthi Appelö:
That is such a good point.
That is such a good point.
Chuck Gaidica:
So, as we look at this idea again of organic, what is your advice, not so much this buddy of mine who was telling me about just starting with organic vegetables, but that may be yours as well. What is your advice about the approach we should take for maybe this new year? We’re not organic, we’re not leading into it yet. What do we do? How do we approach it?
So, as we look at this idea again of organic, what is your advice, not so much this buddy of mine who was telling me about just starting with organic vegetables, but that may be yours as well. What is your advice about the approach we should take for maybe this new year? We’re not organic, we’re not leading into it yet. What do we do? How do we approach it?
Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah. One thing to note is that organic food is, of course, more expensive. We experienced a lot of food inflation last year, very significant that I know impact a lot of families in the way that they’re spending and budgeting. And some people may have moved from a place of being very secure in what they’re able to provide on the table to moving to a place of food insecurity. So, I think with that, it’s really important to recognize that if you’re putting fruits and vegetables on your table, that’s going to have more positive health benefits than anything whether it’s organic or not organic.
However, if you do have the money to spend, I think it’s very important to look at the quality of animal lives in the way that they’re treated with organic practices and the way that it’s treating our earth. And so, organic farming is kind of this proactive approach to the environment where we’re not fixing a problem, we’re working towards a way that is going to be sustainable over time. And so finally I guess, if you’re able to choose organic, that’s a really great reason, but you’re not harming your health by choosing conventional foods. Fruits and vegetables is more important than organic.
Yeah. One thing to note is that organic food is, of course, more expensive. We experienced a lot of food inflation last year, very significant that I know impact a lot of families in the way that they’re spending and budgeting. And some people may have moved from a place of being very secure in what they’re able to provide on the table to moving to a place of food insecurity. So, I think with that, it’s really important to recognize that if you’re putting fruits and vegetables on your table, that’s going to have more positive health benefits than anything whether it’s organic or not organic.
However, if you do have the money to spend, I think it’s very important to look at the quality of animal lives in the way that they’re treated with organic practices and the way that it’s treating our earth. And so, organic farming is kind of this proactive approach to the environment where we’re not fixing a problem, we’re working towards a way that is going to be sustainable over time. And so finally I guess, if you’re able to choose organic, that’s a really great reason, but you’re not harming your health by choosing conventional foods. Fruits and vegetables is more important than organic.
Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. That apple a day thing applies forever and ever, doesn’t it?
Yeah. That apple a day thing applies forever and ever, doesn’t it?
Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah, does keep the doctor away.
Yeah, does keep the doctor away.
Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah, right. So, try to eat your fruits and veggies the best way you can and then try to get into this idea of organic. Lots of good stuff here. And I am tempted more and more to buy organic, so it is something that I’m paying attention to. And I bet I’m just one of a zillions of people that are doing it, so.
Yeah, right. So, try to eat your fruits and veggies the best way you can and then try to get into this idea of organic. Lots of good stuff here. And I am tempted more and more to buy organic, so it is something that I’m paying attention to. And I bet I’m just one of a zillions of people that are doing it, so.
Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, definitely.
Chuck Gaidica:
Well, thanks for the encouragement. Shanthi Appelö joining us, registered dietitian for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan. Always good to see you.
Well, thanks for the encouragement. Shanthi Appelö joining us, registered dietitian for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan. Always good to see you.
Shanthi Appelö:
Thanks so much, Chuck.
Thanks so much, Chuck.
Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah, take good care. We’re glad you were listening today to A Healthier Michigan. It’s a podcast that’s brought to you by Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan. If you like the show, you want to know more, jump online. You can go to ahealthiermichigan.org/podcast. If you want, you can also leave us a review or rating on Apple Podcast or Spotify. You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all the usual places. And you can get episodes, old episodes, this episode, all kinds of episodes. Be sure to subscribe to us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app to get all of that. I’m Chuck Gaidica, stay well.
Yeah, take good care. We’re glad you were listening today to A Healthier Michigan. It’s a podcast that’s brought to you by Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan. If you like the show, you want to know more, jump online. You can go to ahealthiermichigan.org/podcast. If you want, you can also leave us a review or rating on Apple Podcast or Spotify. You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all the usual places. And you can get episodes, old episodes, this episode, all kinds of episodes. Be sure to subscribe to us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app to get all of that. I’m Chuck Gaidica, stay well.
